If you want to see an astroturfing live show you only need to visit lenr-forum and read what has been written since this morning, when it sort of stopped 🙂 Have a look at the handles @damn_right_yes, @zenoOfElea, @roseland67 and to some extent @sigmoidal (more of a feeder maybe with biased interpretation of legal docs) running dry to get something going on earlier post by more well known identities of @bob, @thhuxley and @jedrothwell. It is really interesting from a psychosocial perspective.
Please observe that this is not an allegation, but an example of what I am describing below. This is what would be expected in that kind of astroturfing scenario, and that is it. BTW! @PeterMetz have asked nicely to be removed. So be it. @shane_d has asked to be included, but no. I’ll just keep him here in the comment since he sometimes seems to show genuine interest and is kind of a fun guy. (but he certainly isn’t helping the cause) 🙂
Another clue how to spot he players is to search for posts including sentences that anchor the narrative on invectives like “crook”, “scam artist”, “con artist”, “scammer”, etc. It’s JTRIG schoolbook… Repetition…
The last couple of days have been interesting. The Rossi/Gullström report combined with a load of new legal documents have materialized.
One of the most important discoveries is the extent of the IH strategy to sign up the LENR community on NDA’s (and stocks) to keep them in control. Have a look at this list from 214-35:
And here from 214-23:
Needless to say everyone above could be considered having strong incentives to trash Rossi in favor of IH.
And needless to say many of these stakeholders are active on the Internet pushing their agenda; openly or anonymously. As we know Dewey (who is not on the list, but the guy signing them up), and Jed are among the most active and angry activists.
Historically lenr-forum.com (together with e-catworld.com) has been the most active site for discussions on the E-Cat and LENR in general. Recently though it has been taken over almost completely by IH related posters (named and anonymous) and in the last couple of days almost everyone making critic against the IH standpoint has been banned. To be fair even Dewey Weaver was banned, but I guess that sacrifice had to be done in order not to seem to biased since he has been a total mess for ages.
And, actually Dewey was not banned by the moral conditioner, Eric Walker, but by the much more balanced Alan Smith. It sure looks like Dewey vomiting all over the place for months was ok to Eric, but when it heated up and the debate was no longer one-sided he had to pull the trigger.
So what is happening here.
There is no doubt lenr-forum has become the number one FUD vehicle of the IH stakeholders. All according to classic Apco strategy of astroturfing:
It is also standard procedure according the the JTRIG handbook offered to us by Snowden.
As you can see it is all about controlling the narrative. Moving the focus away from what is important. lenr-forum has become a schoolbook real time example on how to do it.
My guess is that Apco are deploying at least a handful of operatives working on different aspects. Legal, the Lugano report (hello Clarkes et al), measurements setup, etc etc. All with the aim to confuse, diffuse, divert and decept.
But why is this happening?
I’m still a bit confused. Looking trough exhibits 214-23 and 35 the business plan of IH look somewhat genuine. No doubt Apco Worldwide is responsible for the astroturfing (it is core business to them) but is there a larger agenda than simple venture capitalism. There are some indications that larger entities are watching, but acting. I don’t know.
If that is the case it is extremely well executed and Darden is doesn’t really suit the profile being only a mid-range VC guy historically. And Dewey…. He would be a serious liability in any project like this… On the other hand, the attempts to offer opportunities (bribe) Levi to reject the Lugano report through Israeli Intelligence (Mossad?) agents is really suspicious. Lugano report bashing is obviously important. Even before and during the MW GPT test. And even during the time IH used it for marketing – and now this bashing is a nice fallback – we were stupid, we didn’t know, etc… we were conned… – Playing both sides of the table. Woodford should certainly be suspicious about this behaviour.
On the other hand. I found one indication that it might be as simple as IH not having the money. 214-23 business plan again
or maybe not. Rossi payments is included, but that line results in a $92M shortage …. This is before the $50M Woodford funding, but anyway. It was way after 2013 when IH nowadays says there was no GPT and that the discussion was only about “maybe paying Rossi some money” sort of. The exact $89M is pretty clear in this budget though… ie “earning his $89 success fee” is on the table here …
At this point I’m going with the “Was not able to raise the money” hypothesis and is ready to assume that the business plan in 214-23 is basically as honest as a business plan can be. I still believe IH pissed off Rossi during the summer of 2015 when they brought on tons of other investments on who know what promises (loudmouth Dewey probably promised heaven to anyone willing to listen – combined with any number if creative threats if they didn’t…). When the Woodford funding was done, Rossi also got the hunch that IH was planning not to pay (because he knew IH didn’t have the money, only Cherokee is that funded). Ie. he was offered money to stop the test, etc. And IH was to keep the IP in that scenario for peanuts.
Darden did not plan for the lawsuit though. And here we are. Today the fight is about the narrative (on lenr-forum etc). Prior to the trial it is very important for IH to trash Rossi as much as possible and prevent him from doing business in the future. It is probably worth the money paid to Apco for astroturfing. And this is also the reason for IH to worry about the other licensees (Hydro Fusion, etc.) and about the QuarkX. This is the reason that I directly got confronted with that question from self-proclaimed “newbie” @sigmoidal in the forum and the reason for me being banned when I started to examine his behaviors.
As a fellow banned subject I suspect you are right on the money. Up until now all I ever heard of sifferkoll was that he was a crackpot who used to post on the forum and was banned for being unreasonable. I was watching up until you were banned and nothing you said seemed that unreasonable to me. At first I wasn’t sure why I was banned, but now I realize it was because I touched on this conspiracy idea. I guess I was getting a little too close to home. I guess I will be a regular on your blog now. Despite my being banned I managed to get in through the back door and have been watching the forum up until a few minutes ago. It seems now that all of the Rossi detractors are just playing off of each other with there anti-Rossi rhetoric. It’s a FUD free-for-all.
Yes, you’re absolutely right. They do want something that looks like a debate. But only about minor details (legal and measurements). Actually they want huge debates about minor details and they excel in it. So everyone that falls into that trap is welcome. They call it science even though it is only speculation and diversion. As soon as someone touches the real issues it is called conspiracy and attacks… And now it seems like they are simply banning everyone discussing real issues and not conforming. The sad thing is that some of the moderators that ok, are not complaining but buying the narrative.
kjsldkjflsThanks Torkel, I agree with your analysis, and in the end, this is also my conclusion—IH didn’t have the money to pay Rossi, or maybe they even never planned to pay Rossi. And they were not prepared for the lawsuit. Just as I noted in my first blog post after the lawsuit was filed back in 2016.
I also agree that IH now fights do dominate the narrative. But as I noted at E-Cat World the other day: “People can be convinced and misled by other people’s intentional or unintentional efforts to present information in a certain way. But physics really doesn’t care about people. Physics just is, and sooner or later what it is will be undeniable.”
This process is now going on independently of Rossi and I expect to see interesting results within the upcoming months.
In any case, it really seems a bit surprising that you’re banned from LENR Forum, given the incredible amount of simplistic and poorly founded criticism against Rossi et al.
Now there are at least half a dozen posts discussing whether you (Mats) have been paid by Rossi. I guess they don’t get banned for speculating this because you don’t post on LENR-Forum?
Actually, in some ways, physics DOES care about what people think. Human perception can change some physics experiments. However, let’s put that aside, for a second, and assume that physics truly doesn’t care about what people think. I still think that people can keep themselves from believing anything, if they truly want to, and they can do so indefinitely. Enough people, with enough power, need to be open enough to this possibility for it to gain traction. In this case, I’m hoping that it will.
Seems like this is the self-help page for people who got banned in Lenr Forum 😉
I got banned after asking why Eric choose this specific day to start his banning crusade. Makes me wonder…
Still I dont think there is any conspiracy involved. These conspiracies are awfully hard to organize and to keep under the blanket (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35411684) . I think everybody at lenrforum and ECW, etc. is doing what he believes he has to. and there is no secret agenda needed or involved.
Maybe Eric just had a bad day, who knows? However I do not believe it to be very difficult to astroturf lenr-forum. You only need mabye 2-3 people on 5-6 handles posting each other and using balls from some other genuine players to exaggerate the narrative and ignore what you dont want. Everything would hardly cost more than a 1/2 JD lawyer. Could it be worth it? Probably. Does it happen? Sure.
Well there wouldn’t be any chance for astroturfing if we would have something real laying on the table. But right now it’s Rossi / Parkhomov / me356 / … says versus IH says. Physics shouldn’t be about opinion.
Agree. Although I more or less consider us to have something real on the table, witnessed by at least a quite a lot of people. That is not enough though since all these people are constantly harassed (even by Israeli intelligence…). This will not go on forever though.
I hope you are right…
Sorry but that “study” you cite stacks a very flawed methodology on completely illogical assumptions: https://pieceofmindful.com/2016/10/24/too-many-people-on-the-viability-of-conspiratorial-beliefs/
One of the most frustrating things about engaging in a debate with someone who has been trained in JTRIG-like methods is that if you are not aware of those methods and not aware that that sort of thing goes on, then it’s actually quite hard to spot. The people you are engaging *appear* to be calm, curious, rational, etc. And when you start going around in circles with them, you being to suspect that the problem is with you — with your inability to explain yourself correctly, etc. Or you just think that you’re talking with somebody who is stubborn or something like that. But once you realize what’s going on and have some experience interacting with someone who uses the tactics, they become much more apparent. But it is hard to prove and so hard to convince other people who aren’t aware.
I have 2 questions:
1. Does anybody here have any insight into Bob Greenyers’s claim that IH has some connection to the CIA?
2. Torkel what is the significance of the Jan. 28th date?
1. No idea. The only indications is that Washington is keeping an eye open. I’ve net researched it in a while, but when I posted a lot last summer at every post I made had ip’s from DoD, DoJ, Whitehouse, etc. in the logs. Just a moment ago, someone from Bechtel Corp read this post which I guess is definitely military complex.. CIA as we know by now, have other means to read what they want and don’t need to surf the web… 😉
2. Only that there were massive filing of legal docs from IH on that day.
One more thought: it’s possible that IH is trying to take control of the narrative not to influence the outcome of the court case but simply to manage the impressions of the LENR enthusiast community for when the court case is decided. Anything short of a full victory for Rossi can be spun to support IH’s narrative, and even a Rossi victory could be spun as an unfair decision. If they want to maintain an active role in the LENR community, they have to maintain a positive image no matter what happens with the court case. Hence the heroic nonsense “we are so committed to making the world a better place that we’d even prostitute our own mothers if there is even a 1% chance that the technology works.”
I have long thought the astroturfing assessment is right on. Like Sifferkoll says, it is a common technique used to influence public opinion. It’s nothing but a modern propaganda tool making use of the internet and email medium.
Separately, since Sifferkoll (in a net work chart/figure) identified Darden’s and Dewey’s connection to the solar industry and the large utility company (NPR) ? last year and his visit to chat with Obama, I have concluded Darden may not be fully behind LRNR given a heavy investment in other alternate energy, reflecting alternate energy priorities of the US government and the Democrats.
And its not beyond the US government to maintain a status quo with respect to energy in the name of welfare and stability of the country–maybe even military superiority. ( A disruptive LENR is a Natioinal security issue.) The CIA should certainly have a role in covert control and information gathering IMHO.
Here is that old post including the mind map. Who knows, maybe the Israeli agents (~CIA) talked to Darden first and asked him (friendly…) to slow down when the MW plant suddenly seemed too good?
I am here because someone linked to your blog posting. Your reference to my handle as a participant in the “astroturfing live show” could not be more incorrect. I am an individual who has been following Rossi for 6+ years. My motivation for posting is to get to the truth about Rossi’s E-Cat. I have posted before over the years predating IH using this handle on Facebook,, lenr-forum, Rossi’s blog, and even your blog.
I have no financial, professional, or personal associations with any of the players in this saga.
Is it OK to make allegations without any evidence to support one’s own theory? While the Internet allows such behaviour I do not believe it is ethical. Please remove my name from this blog post but leave this comment.
I removed you and made a comment because of your previous history on this blog. I’m sorry if I’m mistaken, maybe you’re only victim of FUD spread by Jed and TCHuxley…
“maybe you’re only victim of FUD spread by Jed and TCHuxley…”
I guess I should have added the emoticon 😉
I follow the lenr saga since about 2010.
For me the strange thing is the constant messages of great discoveries brought to market in nearest future.
But nothing happens, except more new stories.
Maybe one day me356 comes out with his recipe, mfmp really found what they think, mills sells a reactor or somebody else of the increasing number of scientists has his lucky moment.
Lenr forum is for more than one reason interesting lecture, apart from the fact, that a great percentage of posters in fact spams the forum with useless information that does not add anything to the knowledge of lenr, just making it a hard read.
I think when the new fire is available for everyones use, films will be made about the strange way the most important technology since ages has been hindered to be developed for so many years.
If anybody really has the intention of holding lenr down forever, this task will at some point get impossible.
IMHO its already too late.
I would bet 2017 is the year things get funny.
Let the truth be seen.
Let the schemers be exposed.
Let the planet be saved.
A similar thing took place near the beginning of the 20th century regarding electrification. It finally took nearly 3 decades to finally get it done after court battles and also battles in the public forums of the day. Of course there was not internet then, but it was still a free-for-all for a long time.
About Myself, i share not IH/Dewey team because long time ago i understood what you explaned (everything is drived by secret services). Sure Rossi/Piantelli technology is right !! Les me still few month for demonstration..
Do you not think that oil and gas industry are involved in the mudslinging campains.
They could all certainly have a good reason to delay the LENR developement.
On LENR Forum only one upright moderator is left (Alan Smith), Alains C. lives on WWW money and probably needs an additional income. The named character “Eric Walker” is clearly identified as deep state watch dog. He scared everybody highly educated away, that tried to explain R.Mills theory, by playing the dumb undergraduate. In reality he is very knowledgable in physics. But “Walker” ostentatious tries to promote (as a hidden delusive action) a wrong path, which is ridiculous to anybody knowledgable in the field.
May be somebody should ask him, why Wikipedia eradicated all positive pages about R.Mills …
As already Mills said (but based on a shaky and unproven theory) it is true that all LENR is based on a compact form of Hydrogen. This “could be seen” in the patent write-up describing the famous Lipinski experiments, who claim to fuse Lithium with protons…
In fact, the day Mills sells his first production reactor, classical physics and the whole related circus, will start their walk trough the seven years of pains. ITER (and other fusion cheats) will immediately be shut down. CERN will be halved and Oil?? Wind??, river-water??. OK this will take a long time…
One more thing: LENR-forum runs on cloud-flare, that runs on software written by AKAMAI which has very, very strong ties to NSA and an other famous service. But don’t worry they (AKAMAI) only run 60% of the worldwide WWW traffic…
“Eric Walker” is a despicable creature, and Alain C. has clearly been bought. Look at his pathetic reversal “buhuhu I thought Rossi had the goods now I’m 100000% sure he’s a scammer omg I’m sooo sad he fooled us ;_;”
Alan Smith is a hero, just like Peter Gluck.
Sifferkoll, I have never been one to dismiss suspicion of meddling in these type of affairs by the US Government or other affected entities such as the energy companies. I just submitted a post over on ECW regarding a personal experience of what can happen when the US Government decides your technology is not compatible with their interest. Here is a link. You are welcome to repost it here if you have interest. http://www.e-catworld.com/2017/04/28/not-just-another-conspiracy-theory-michael-rion/
I enjoy the efforts you have put in this, appreciate it for all the great blog posts.